Home » Most Recent Stories

FLECKENSTEIN: THE STOCK MARKET HAS LOST ITS DISCOUNTING MECHANISM

30 June 2010 by Cullen Roche 13 Comments

Very interesting thoughts here from Bill Fleckenstein.  Fleckenstein argues that the market has lost its discounting mechanism.  I am not so sure I agree that it ever really had a discounting mechanism.

To me the market is a non-linear dynamical system which is susceptible to substantial chaos. The market is very inefficient in the short-term due to the inefficiency of its participants.  The idea of the efficient market and the market as an efficient discounting mechanism has been sold hook line and sinker to the public.  We are taught that equities can’t go down over the long-term, that a PE ratio of 10 is “historically cheap”, that you can’t outperform the market, yet none of this is founded in solid proof, but rather a very short history of data that is currently available and adds up to nothing more than theory (a weak one at that).   Fleckenstein’s comments are well worth a listen:

Source: Bloomberg TV

Cullen Roche

Cullen Roche

Bio - Coming Soon.

More Posts - Website

Follow Me:
TwitterYouTube

Disclosures - Unless otherwise noted, authors have no positions in any securities mentioned and readers should never consider this to be investment advice. Always consult your financial advisor before acting on any ideas. Comments Guideline - Readers who denigrate authors or other readers will be banned without warning. This site does not tolerate any sort of reader abuse. The goal of this site is to create an environment that is conducive to learning and better understanding of the monetary system and the investment world. We expect readers to behave maturely and responsibly. We welcome and encourage intense and intelligent discourse, but the site adheres to a strict 1 strike policy. While it is your right to speak freely, it is not your right to behave childishly. Above all else, please enjoy the site. It is intended to be used as an educational tool and we hope the intelligent and mature debate will further that purpose. We hope readers will make an effort to respect that goal. Comments with excessive linking or foul language will be moderated before posting.
Comments
  • SUCKINGMASCHINE

    Comment deleted

    • In Accounting

      TPC, this is your site and as you said in your summary of the RBS piece, even extreme positions should be heard. However a line should be drawn at hate mongering. I know you do not have the time to play internet police but (un)fortunately it appears that your site has gained enough popularity that you will need to come up with some mechanism to control/contain inappropriate postings.

      Thank you for all you put into this blog, I have certainly learned a lot from your various postings and thoughts.

    • Cullen Roche TPC

      Anyone who throws any racial epithets around will be banned immediately. No warnings.

      Sorry everyone. I’ve been out much of the day so no, I haven’t had time to play internet police….

  • david

    Bill Fleckenstein is the first guy I happened to read back in early ’07 that alerted me to the ensuing debacle, followed by Todd Harrison, Mish Shedlock, Nouriel Roubini, Meredith Whitney, Louise Yamada, and various others.

    Clearly they were correct in their assertions then, and I am reasonably certain they still are.

  • ObaMao

    Fleckenstein is a good strategist but has tainted track record with many of his stock picks.

  • LVG

    Fleck is in the hyperinflationist crowd – nailed the downturn, but got its causes and effects almost entirely wrong. Aside from gold these people have been totally wrong. Use their commentary sparingly.

    • Marty

      This is simply not true. I have seen Fleckenstein say very explicitly on multiple occasions that he views hyperinflation as a low probability event. He sees significant inflation (not hyperinflation) sometime in the future, but not in the immediate future. He is very careful to qualify his viewpoints with the caveat that he doesn’t know when outcomes he believes will come will actually occur, just that they will occur.

      Am not sure where you obtained your information…

      I agree with ObaMao that Fleckenstein’s stock picks have an inconsistent record. I don’t think stock picking is his strength (except maybe gold stocks). His strategic thinking is quite good in my view, although he often seems to expect the big events to play out sooner than they actually do. For example, he talked about the housing bubble and its hazards a LOT, well before most others (certainly well before TPC did, since TPC said he noted it in 2006), and those who listened to him and avoided investing in real estate during that time saved themselves a lot of pain. He may have been the first person to use the phrase “housing ATM” to refer to home equity withdrawals to fuel massive consumption in the US. Fleckenstein also talked a lot about the Nasdaq bubble as it unfolded, although he was early in predicting its end; someone who got out when he started getting concerned would have missed out on much of the spectacular rise (and also all of the spectacular decline…). Finally, he warned that the trap door on equities could open within days (which it did) in Fall 2008; in that case he was not early, and that warning saved me and others some pain.

      As others have noted in the past, Fleckenstein is a fan of the gold standard (although he doesn’t believe it will actually be reinstituted, at least in its traditional form). I think I understand his rationale — he sees it as a way of imposing fiscal discipline and impeding recklessness. For example, he claims that Greece could never have gotten itself into its current mess in the first place if it had been under a gold standard. (Of course, now that they’re in their mess, it seems like it would be a particularly bad time for them to go onto a gold standard…)

      His viewpoints seem to be strongly influenced by the Austrian school, but this outlook helped him see the Nasdaq and housing bubbles (and their demise) well before most people. Maybe you are right that he got the causes wrong, which would imply his analysis somehow led to substantive predictions (ones he talked about again and again and again…) because of “luck.” However, one could also argue that much of his analysis was actually correct.

      I’m also not sure why you think his analysis of the effects has been wrong, since much of what he expected has unfolded (including his expectation that there would be lots of money printing in response to the events of Fall 2008). For example, in Fall 2008 he laid out his big-picture view, using an analogy of three baseball games corresponding to three different crises: the financial crisis, which is what nearly imploded the financial system in fall 2008; an economic crisis, which was the descent into recession; and a funding crisis, which would ultimately “take away the printing press” (including that of the Fed). Of these, the first two have obviously already happened, although the first one was hardly a prediction (it was already under way at the time). He has talked about this funding crisis for well over a year now, but obviously it is at best in its early stages with the funding issues in some European countries. Fleckenstein is very sure it will ultimately happen even in the US, probably within the next couple of years (no timetable, though). Certainly TPC and many others strongly believe it won’t happen in the US for reasons he has made very clear. So, going forward, this will provide an empirical test of EMT which TPC is fond of, versus a more Austrian viewpoint. But it will take time to unfold, if it happens at all. We’ll see…

      • Marty

        Errr… I MEANT to say

        going forward, this will provide an empirical test of MMT which TPC is fond of …

        (Sorry about that, TPC!)

  • quark

    he’ll break his fund with his current outlook…rangebound.

  • AWF

    Earnings don’t matter in a liquidity driven market–Check

    Financials Earnings–pick a number–pure Fiction—Check

    Range Bound S&P–950/1150–Check

    Fed continues to provide liquidity–Check

    Throw away the BlackScholes Models–Check

    Push the Red button or the Green Button–check

    Republicans win in November—Priceless

  • Axios

    Bill’s one of the sharpest knives in the drawer. His track record is not sketchy in any way. He has quite clearly laid out his opinions, what he likes, and why he likes it. He’s more than willing to ride the ups and downs knowing in his mind what the end result will be. It keeps him from having to be glued to his monitor.

  • John Mc

    Key point from my perspective is the mantra we keep hearing that says at 13 times S&P eps, the market is cheap. Do historical metrics like that have any relevance whatsoever in a deflationary environment?

  • quark

    It seems that everyone supporting Fleckenstein’s view believes that the worst is over…2008 is behind us. I guess I don’t understand what specific skill sets are ‘gifted’ to an individual which creates their status of market oracle.

    Post Volcker the central bank has been attempting to correct the financial strains created when Volcker squeezed inflation out of the economy and reoriented inflation expectations. The government and the Fed solution has been to create consecutive bubbles that have grown both in the original asset value/class and demographics and subsequent destruction.

    What other assets other than the devaluation of the dollar is there?