Home » Most Recent Stories, Special Reports

LOWE’S CEO: HOUSING DOUBLE DIPPING, TO FALL “AT LEAST” THROUGH MID 2011

16 November 2010 by Cullen Roche 15 Comments

The housing double dip may very well be the most important story heading into 2011.  Although local by nature the impact of a continued downturn in housing should not be downplayed.  Housing was the domino that set the entire credit crisis in motion in 2007.  In addition, declining asset prices are the most destructive facet of a balance sheet recession.  Richard Koo has recently described how this phenomena was what ultimately dragged Japan into deflation:

“Real estate, the stock market, and everything else.  When that bubble collapsed, asset prices fell, but the liabilities remained.  Balance sheets all over Japan in the private sector were underwater.  Although they were bankrupt, the cash flow of many of these companies was still very good.  Japan continued to run one of the largest trade surpluses in the world.  So companies had the cash flow, but balance sheets were underwater.

If you put anyone in that situation, what would they do?  They will use the cash flow to pay down debt, because shareholders don’t want to be told that their shares were just a piece of paper.  Bankers don’t want to be told that their loans are all nonperforming.  Workers don’t want to be told that there are no more jobs tomorrow.  For all the stakeholders involved, the right thing to do was to use the cash flow to repair their balance sheets.

The problem is, when everybody does that all at the same time, what happens to the national economy?  If someone is saving money or paying down debt, you better have someone on the other side borrowing and spending money.  In the usual world, we have the financial sector in the middle taking the money from this side and giving it to people on that side.  If there are too many people who want to borrow money, interest rates rise; if there are too few, you bring interest rates down, and the money circulates in the economy.

But what we discovered when our bubble burst was that even with zero interest rates, no one was borrowing money.  Everybody was paying down debt, because their balance sheets were all underwater.  No one wanted to borrow money.”

In the USA it is primarily the household balance sheet that remains underwater (although much of the banking sector also remains deeply troubled).  This is important because Mr. Bernanke is attempting to combat this with a very blunt policy tool – monetary policy.  Hence, why the Central Bank is attempting to keep asset prices “higher than they otherwise would be.”  Unfortunately, QE is unlikely to be effective in fighting the housing decline.  Further housing declines will have wide reaching negative impacts on an already fragile economy.

To highlight the importance of housing it’s worth reviewing the housing market wealth effect.  Contrary to opinions you might have heard recently concerning the Fed and the equity market wealth effect, Robert Shiller has come to different conclusions regarding the impact of rising and falling equity and house prices.  Although he found no evidence of a wealth effect in equities he did find that house values significantly impact economic activity:

“the evidence of a stock market wealth effect is weak; the common presumption that there is strong evidence for the wealth effect is not supported in our results.  However, we do find strong evidence that variations in housing market wealth have important effects upon consumption. “

Lowe’s reported earnings yesterday and they provided some insights on the current state of housing.  On the conference call Robert Niblock, CEO of Lowe’s confirmed that housing is indeed double dipping and that prices are likely to continue falling “at least” through the middle of 2011.  Niblock says prices will only fall 4-8% further.  Zillow and Clear Capital are both reporting declines of -4.3% and -6.8% in the latest quarter.  S&P predicts prices will decline 7-10% in 2011.

Earlier this year I said home prices were likely to remain strong through H1 due to government intervention before succumbing to the supply/demand imbalance as the government stepped aside.  My estimates are a bit more negative with total declines of ~15% before housing finds a sustainable bottom in 2011 or 2012.  It’s very important that investors keep close tabs on the housing market and the developing double dip.  If it materializes into a substantial decline it will have a very negative impact on economic growth in 2011 and could potentially trigger fears of a 2008 repeat.

The pertinent portion of the Lowes conference call is attached:

Michael Lasser – Barclays Capital

Good morning. Thanks a lot for taking my question. So as you think about the relationship between housing turnover and your comps, what do you think the correlation is going to be moving forward? Is that going to become decoupled? Are we reaching—and why might that be? Is it because we’re reaching a base level of demand? How are you contemplating that.

Robert Niblock

I’ll start, Michael, then I’ll ask Greg Bridgeford to join in. I think—in the past, housing turnover has been as important in the past. I would think it’s still important today and it’ll be important in the future because, as you know, it provides a natural incident for the homeowners who need to come and buy products related to the home in our industry. Obviously what’s been challenging is even though that there’s been still continued positive correlation associated with that, the bigger issue is the more than offsetting fact that the pullback you’ve seen in overall demand with unemployment where it’s at and with home prices continuing to drop. You know, home prices were down about 29% when they bottomed in January or so earlier this year. When you had the stimulus programs for the home buying tax credit, you saw a little bit of a pick back up; but now home prices are falling again and probably anticipated to fall through at least the middle of next year, so you’ve probably got another four to eight percent or so, potentially, on home price decline. And even though we’re gaining jobs, that’s still not growing fast enough to drop the unemployment rate on the jobs front So even though you’re seeing fundamental improvement, the majority of the decline of home prices is behind us, we are gaining jobs – all those type of things are positive signs. Those two halo effects – employment and the continued decline in home prices – probably offset or kind of water down what you would normally see as that correlation you’ve been able to draw on in the past between housing turnover and our sales. So housing turnover is still important, but it’s offset by some of these other factors. (emphasis added).

Source: Seeking Alpha

Disclosures - Unless otherwise noted, authors have no positions in any securities mentioned and readers should never consider this to be investment advice. Always consult your financial advisor before acting on any ideas. Comments Guideline - Readers who denigrate authors or other readers will be banned without warning. This site does not tolerate any sort of reader abuse. The goal of this site is to create an environment that is conducive to learning and better understanding of the monetary system and the investment world. We expect readers to behave maturely and responsibly. We welcome and encourage intense and intelligent discourse, but the site adheres to a strict 1 strike policy. While it is your right to speak freely, it is not your right to behave childishly. Above all else, please enjoy the site. It is intended to be used as an educational tool and we hope the intelligent and mature debate will further that purpose. We hope readers will make an effort to respect that goal. Comments with excessive linking or foul language will be moderated before posting.
Comments
  • Mediocritas

    Koo, as always, is worth listening to and his observation is exactly why I say that the only way to fix the real estate situation in the US is to refinance as many loans as possible, and I’m not talking about modification of interest repayments, I’m talking about modification of the *principal*.

    Basically, we had inflation of home prices that was fuelled by excessive speculation that was enabled by securitization, lack of regulation and rampant fraud. As the enabling factors are addressed, “organic” home prices will fall as the bubble fuel-tap is closed. Problematically, as Koo points out, the lingering mortgages being paid on these homes will reflect history: prices based on fraud.

    So what needs to happen is that loan principals be reduced in lockstep with elimination of fraud and introduction of regulation. A “floating principal” if you will. Homeowners aren’t getting a free ride here, they’ll still have a loan to service, but it will be manageable and their likelihood of default will be reduced, adding stability. In a way, it is a form of justice that those who most perpetuated the fraud (and profited from it) should be forced to pay for it (writedowns). As with any Ponzi scheme, this is the only way to ensure a “just” solution (reverse it).

    Of course, this will eat into banks books, but reduced principal loans are less of a loss than a full foreclosure; at least there is still an asset in play. Such an outcome would stress many banks into insolvency but that’s what the Fed is for. Every large loan led to a large deposit, somewhere in the system. By boosting the reserve ratio, the Fed will gain greater power to reallocate (temporarily) reserves from healthy institutions to those on the ropes, engaging as many QE-type tricks as necessary along the way (or better, to encourage the healthy to take over the sick). The complication here is that with the rise of exotic derivatives, many of those needed reserves exist outside the traditional banking system and outside the USA. A multi-faceted global approach is needed to fully resolve the mess all of this has caused requiring extensive cooperation between nations and their central banks.

    I call this the “Great Unwind” which requires OECD governments to properly regulate the trading of exotic derivatives, placing limits on exposure. Where institutions are found to currently be over-exposed (which is most of them), then positions shall be forcefully cancelled. Lack of domestic liquidity throughout the process will have to be addressed through large central bank currency swaps (that may have to be conducted while ignoring open market exchange rates).

    • goodfriend

      http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/05/report-112-million-us-properties-with.html

      beware the double dip, acc. to the link above “Research has shown that once negative equity exceeds 25 percent “owners begin to default with the same propensity as investors”, and it is these 4.9 million borrowers – with $656 billion in debt – that are most at risk for foreclosure.”

    • dimm Dimm

      “those who most perpetuated the fraud (and profited from it) should be forced to pay for it (writedowns).”
      It will not work like that though. The banks did not keep the loans on the books, so only the taxpayers will suffer.

    • roger erickson

      “the only way to fix the real estate situation in the US is to refinance as many loans as possible”

      it would be even more direct to ensure jobs & income for all those still wanting to pay their existing mortgages;

      there’s an obvious ontogeny to economic development; just follow it, rather than trying to create Frankenstein economies de novo; the outcome won’t be pretty, and will never be competitively priced with what’s already evolved

  • BK

    Given the declines already seen, would it be fair to say that the destruction has already occurred? In the whole scheme of things its possible the average household is probably already anticipating further small declines and incorporated this into their spending decisions (no evidence at all to justify this of course)

    Not only that, housing is already double dipping yet the U.S. economy appears to be chugging along still – obviously things are still weak but the rate of change if anything appear to be modestly improving rather than deteriorating.

    My take would be that this issue is being ignored because no one is anticipating material declines from here…single-digit rather than double-digit

    • roger erickson

      “Given the declines already seen, would it be fair to say that the destruction has already occurred?”

      it’s true we have huge lost output, that will never be recovered; but no, it’s not fully priced in and much can still be recovered; if unemployment dropped – and especially if we went to full employment – output would explode and many or most mortgage repossessions would be stopped in their tracks

      when you get run over by a truck, but aren’t permanently broken, the savvy thing to do is get up ASAP and move out of the way; sitting immobile in the middle of the road isn’t a strategy

      with people back to productive work, then we could get on to putting tens of thousands of banksters in jail

  • boatman

    zombie banks> zombie households> zombie governments> zombie currencies

    some worse than others….a few emergings not too bad.

    the house of cards still falls—global world now….4.5 days for a container ship china to LA.

    the middle of the beginning is where we are.

    • roger erickson

      you left out some necessary extensions of your process definition:
      zombie education => zombie electorate => zombie policy apparatus => zombie national operations (go as far as you want, but it’s a statistical question of how much course correction you want out of this Titanic, how soon it starts, and how fast it occurs)

  • roger erickson

    Koo on Japan
    “But what we discovered when our bubble burst was that even with zero interest rates, no one was borrowing money. Everybody was paying down debt, because their balance sheets were all underwater. No one wanted to borrow money.” [regardless of their cash flow]

    so if everyone’s holdings are nominally underwater in a group-issued currency; there comes a time when team logic says you should reset all nominal incomes, bottom-up, to re-normalize the curve and return to “making a more perfect union” [AND re-examine inequities, & jail the worst offenders; ASAP]

    how can so many people constantly forget that
    * greatest cost = cost of coordination &
    * greatest return = return on coordination?

    “tuning” systems ALWAYS takes a 3-stage approach; no part of this is sufficient for adaptive maintenance;
    places to intervene (at 1st pass; gross controls) [& graceful methodology]
    biases to reset (at 2nd pass; subtle tuning)
    fix leakages (remove causes of leakage that build up bias & system drift; call it criminology)

    systems are complex; successful tuning absolutely requires recursive bug-checking & attention to both details & models, to even understand what is/isn’t a bug, and what nested tolerance limits are

    nth pass tuning? how to prevent build up of a population that doesn’t even grasp that it’s part of a very, very complex system? We have work to do – starting all the way down at new “your system” comics for Kindergarten students, so we don’t produce electorates with such inadequate perspective.

    it may take a village to raise a useful child, but it takes a nation of massive feedback & parsing to make a more perfect union; that may sound complex, but there’s only 3 threads
    nation
    feedback
    [group] parsing [per net output]

    what good will anyone’s private accountant be in comparison to the demise of the USA?
    there’s not even a private market is selling citizenship – which should tell you a lot

  • roger erickson

    “the government has to step in and borrow the excess savings in the private sector”

    wouldn’t it be far better to say that “winning groups have to agree to provide methods for denominating desired transactions”
    If you want your nation to grow, you have to find ways to allow people to get things done. It’s that simple. Everything else is subservient to public purpose.

    that sidesteps the incessant problem of inadequately isolated local/global terminology over borrowing, spending, currency creation, deficits, debts etc, etc (an endless pit of overlapping semantics & sophistry)

    I’d always propose groups approach every day as “context war”. If there’s no recognition of context & group options, there’s no appreciation of operations, and no coordinated output.
    With context/operations/coordination – there’s always some way to skin a cat. Without that, there’s only uncoordinated churn – which gets left in the dust faster than you can read the license plate on the context that just ran over you.

  • Roger Ingalls

    Roger:

    I think you are onto something here, but the language you use obscures your ideas. Sounds like it’s from some theoretical textbook.

    BTW what is your basis for the above axiom?

    * greatest cost = cost of coordination &
    * greatest return = return on coordination?

    Sounds like a lesson Boeing could learn…it’s painful to watch them stumble to assemble the Dreamliner from parts and mfg processes all over the globe. While our local labor costs are high, there should be some serious re-evaluation of the benefits provided from their current strategy.

    • roger erickson

      ?? it’s not obscure, it’s a quote from Walter Shewhart, ~1926; the mentor of W.E. Deming;
      ’bout as fundamental as the Constitution; or gravity

  • Teddy

    Who will buy the homes of tomorrow? 2010 highest average monthly foreclosure filings on record. 330,000 average monthly foreclosure filings in the United States. Student

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/who-will-buy-the-homes-of-tomorrow-2010-highest-average-monthly-foreclosure-filings-on-record/

    American housing too expensive and the multi-income trap will not save the housing market. Banks have laundered their bad bets through the Federal Reserve and GSEs while working and middle class income has eroded.
    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/american-housing-too-expensive-and-the-multi-income-trap-will-not-save-the-housing-market/

  • Teddy

    Bernanke’s Failed CNBC Predictions

    http://dailybail.com/home/a-movement-by-the-people-to-prevent-the-reappointment-of-the.html

    Eliot Spitzer: “The Federal Reserve Is A Ponzi Scheme” (Inside The Fed’s Secret Pile Of Trash With Ratigan, Spitzer & Toure

    http://dailybail.com/home/eliot-spitzer-the-federal-reserve-is-a-ponzi-scheme-inside-t.html

    Marvin Barth Says QE2 Won’t Fix `Underlying Problems’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6c0Ln7D49A

    9 Reasons Why Quantitative Easing Is Bad For The U.S. Economy
    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/9-reasons-why-quantitative-easing-is-bad-for-the-u-s-economy

    • roger erickson

      rhetoric about closing the FED doesn’t really help anything; the far bigger problem is bankrupt fiscal policy, and lack of fiscal action

      there’s so much missing here that it’s hard to know where to start;

      for a real simplistic intro to how modern monetary operations actually work, try this (public/private deficits, currency creation, reserve-drains, etc, etc)

      http://moslereconomics.com/2009/12/10/7-deadly-innocent-frauds/

      we need more operations, less politics, and less ideology

      “Rudimentary understanding of currency operations: Don’t let your representatives go to civil government without it!”